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We'll have some hands-on impressions of Epic Mickey later in the week, but right now enjoy the interview after the jump. There are even a few questions Spector said that he had never been asked before. It's a long interview, but the information is one-of-a-kind.
Disclaimer: the interview was slightly edited for readability, but none of the content was removed. Please, read on and enjoy.
What were some of you major influences outside of Disney for Epic Mickey?
Games like Deus Ex of couse. I knew I wanted to incorporate elements of a variety of game styles so one of the things that I knew I wanted to do was capture the gameplay and heart from games like Deus Ex and role-playing games. I wanted role-playing elements so character development and what the player does actually makes a difference. That whole 'playstyle matters' motto that I use all the time that's gotta be a part of everything I do. But also, I was particularly inspired by Mario games; especially Mario 64. I mean that's always been one of the touchstones of incredible game design. And the Zelda games; pick one. I love the Zelda games and so I knew I wanted to take the best of Mario and the best of Zelda and the best of role-playing and sort-of mash them together and see what happened.
What part of the Disney Universe were you particularly excited to work with?
It starts with our hero! As a Disney fan, to be at Disney and to be asked to make a game featuring the most recognizable icon in the world -or certainly one of them- that's a pretty special moment; so Mickey was clearly number one. But then the opportunity to reintroduce Oswald the Lucky Rabbit to the world! I mean, I've known about Oswald for a long time because I'm an animation geek and have been since I was a kid, but the opportunity to bring him back is really special. And, in fact, the part of the introduction that we're showing here at PAX for the first time. There's a moment where Oswald sneaks into the Mad Doctor's lab, and, just sort-of clinging to the wall and I'm not kidding; I'm such a wuss, but I get misty when I see that cuz it's the first time. I was balling in my hotel room this morning! But just knowing that we, the team and I have been able to bring him back for the first time in 82 years; he's being seen on the screen and it's in a game! and it's in a game that I'm working on. C'mon, things don't get any more special.
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Were there any specific Mickey cartoons that you really liked working with?
Yeah, I've seen 'em all and I have favorites. The Mad Doctor was one. When I was a kid -I'll let a psychologist figure out why this one spoke to me- The Mad Doctor from 1933 just got my shorts in a knot when I was a kid. So I knew I had to do that. Clock Cleaners was one of my big favorites. If you're doing a Mickey game and you don't do a shout out to Steamboat Willie and the Sorcerer's Apprentice, you're kind of missing a bit. Those were probably the big ones, but there were so many others that I knew I wanted to put in there. But those were the big ones.
The game was built around making Mickey Mouse a video game hero. Was there anything specific you wanted to do to make him a video game hero?
There were a couple things. One is, it sounds kind of wacky, I wanted to make sure he was thrown up against problems and challenges that were bigger than perhaps he's been thrown up against in the cartoons. I don't think you're doing justice to Mickey if all you're doing is a well-executed platform game. I wanted to make sure he was thrown into a world where he doesn't belong and has really big challenges to face. I know that's not directly answering your question, but taking him out of his safe comfortable context and putting him somewhere else was really important to me. And -more specifically- to actually answer your question: We're still a young enough medium that I think gamers expect, demand, and deserve innovation; Something new; a novelty. And so I knew to make Mickey a video game hero. I knew it wasn't enough to make him just like Mario but with ears. He had to do something that players had never seen or done something just to grab 'em, get their interest, and hold them.
And so, very early on -I'm compressing months into sentences-, there were three of us doing the initial concept work on the game and we hit pretty early on: "What do we do to make Mickey special in this game?" Well, maybe remind him he's a cartoon character. "What does it mean to be a cartoon character?" Well, you squash and stretch when you move. Impossible things happen around because you're in a cartoon. It means you're made of paint and ink. And then, "What if we gave him control of the stuff that he's made of?" So that's where we got Mickey controlling paint; creating stuff, drawing stuff. So then I thought, "How do I make this true to my mission: Playstyle matters? How do I get choice and consequence into that?" Well, what's the opposite of drawing? If you're an artist and you draw something and you don't like it, what do you do? You erase it. So, all of a sudden we're giving the control of paint. How about paint thinner; a little turpentine action! I think that was critical. That was a critical moment for the game. Reminding me he was a cartoon character. Giving him control of paint and thinner. I think big challenges, unfamiliar world, and a unique ability that really does change the way you interact with the game world. That's a video game hero. No one's asked me that question before. That's really cool.
What are some of your favorite mechanics in the game?
Well obviously the paint and thinner (laughs). (I'm) Really happy with the drawing and erasing, that's for sure. It's not so much the mechanical aspect of "I can create things and remove things" that's really interesting; It's more the behind the scenes stuff that not only are we (the dev team) tracking your every move, but the characters respond and care about what you do. That's pretty cool. The fact that you can friend things with paint; that was big too. I mean, you can erase them -which is more or less analogous with what you can do in most games- you can just remove them from the game, but you can also decide "wait a minute, if I remove them from the game that gets me a certain kind of reward, but it costs me something too." And this other approach, "I can use paint and make them friend that can get you different kinds of rewards...", but that's pretty cool too. The fact that you have that kind of choice of friending and erasing. Were at a point where were doing a lot of playtesting. Blind testing; Kids, adults parents, gamers, you name it. And I haven't been to one of the playtest sessions where I don't see three people lined up and you don't get both extremes. "I'm going to erase everything I see", "I'm gonna paint everything I see and turn all my enemies to friends", "I'm gonna do whatever ever I want right now in the moment." You see that all the time. It's really working. That's really cool.
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How much research had to go into early Disney history in order to come up with the Wasteland?
Not to pat myself on the back too hard, but I've been an animation junkie for a long time... I had a pretty good handle on Disney's history. Beyond that, when we started out it was "OK, let's watch every mickey mouse cartoon and let's watch every Oswald cartoon and let's watch every documentary about the creation of Disneyland" cuz I knew I wanted to structure the world like Disneyland. I wanted everything to be familiar and strange: Disney inside-out. Stuff you recognize and love, but just sort-of twisted up a little bit. We did a ton of research. We watched a lot of movies, a lot of documentaries, a lot of film footage of Walt in the early days of Disneyland. [we] went into the archives -did some digging there; went online, did some digging there, but I also had -I have- hundreds and hundreds of animation books which we used pretty dramatically. The real problem wasn't "what do we put in it?" It was "what do we cut?" On every project, I tell people -They say- "where do you get your ideas" and ideas aren't the hard part. Game design isn't what you put in a game as much as you do. Ideas are easy. Cutting things, not including things, deciding which of our babies we're going to exclude. That was painful.
Like Scrapper Mickey?
That wasn't painful at all! That was a crutch. If you have a game of choice and consequence, you have to show the player the result of the choices. I didn't want to do the meter. You know, light side/dark side, good/evil. I didn't want to do that. The only way I could think of how to do it was to literally change the character; Purple shorts, green shoes. And when we did our announcement back in London, that was in the game. Right after that, I think it was a month before, a month after that event, one of the game directors at Junction point came up to me and said "I have an idea".
The goal was to always make sure the player knew the consequences of what their doing on-screen in real time, and he came to me with the guardians. The guardians; they're little spirits/sprites that attract to mickey based on his playstyle. There are two types: Tints and Terps. The tints are blue, the Terps are green. That should be a clue what they do. The tints are paint guardians and the Terps are thinner guardians. Based on your playstyle, you'll attract different guardians. There are all sorts of mysteries around the guardians which we're not going to get into. Anyway, to make a long story short: he put together a little prototype. I looked at it and went "darn, that's better than what I was doing!" I made a creative decision around November of last year to ditch the idea of Scrapper Mickey. And it was, the label kind of bugged me a little bit. And the visual changes were a crutch to communicate to the player. This is a better way to talk to the player. We're introducing a new character type to the universe.
I have plans that we won't talk about for the guardians. They're real interesting SO that was an easy cut. One of my guys came to me with something better which happens all the time. With Deus Ex, this is a little off topic, but when we went alpha in September 2003, the game went alpha with a skill system that I created. I wrote it up, spec'd it, and implemented it. It was in the game and it sucked. I mean, it was just not good. And, the lead designer, Harvey Smith, and one of the senior designers, Steve Powers came to me one day and said "you know, this skill system isn't good. And here we have an alternate proposal." And that's what we shipped with. When someone comes to you with a better idea, you change. And that's all there is. There were some other cuts that were a pain. I wanted to do an Alice in Wonderland world. I wanted to do a bunch of stuff with Tinker Bells and fairies. Because of the Alice in Wonderland movies (Tim) Burton did and because of Disney and all this Fairy stuff. I actually had to cut that stuff. but Scrapper Mickey going away? No. absolutely no, that was the right creative decision to make for a game. There was a rumor going around that that was a result of focus testing and that is completely 100% unheard of. I mean, you don't have to believe me, but I'm telling ya, it's just not true. I have never made a change based on a focus test. and I wouldn't.
Do you do focus testing?
Of course, yeah, I mean, you do it, but it's data. You gather data and you make the right call. In this case, you didn't even gather data. A guy came in with a better idea and I made a change.
Did Kingdom Heart's portrayal of the Disney universe influence the project at all?
Not really. Square makes a different kind of game than I make. I played the first one. I played some of the second one. Honestly, it wasn't much at all. I think it probably paved the way for this project and made Disney a little more open to stuff than they would have been ten years ago. But no.
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Junction Point's idea of playstyle matters, Has it changed sense you came up with the motto back in the day?
No, I've been on the same mission sense I came into the game business in 83. It hasn't changed at all. My belief in it has strengthened. My belief that it is important has strengthened. I think you see that played out in the game business. I mean, without naming names, there are plenty of games that are doing that. Actually, I will name names! Peter Molyneux is making games that have some of that flavor. The Bioware guys, Ray and Greg; they are making games that are have this sort of choice and consequence thing going on. They're all over the place and that's all cool. I mean, I was talking to another developer friend of mine who used to work at Looking Glass and it was "remember when we were the only guys doing this stuff?" and now everyone's doing it and that's really cool.
The big leap that hasn't been made yet is: It's still perceived as a core-gamer concept. The casual gamers or non-gamers, they're not gonna get that; and I rebel against that. From the day I started thinking about this, I said: "you know, how is it more mainstream to make a game like a shooter where if you're not good enough with virtual guns, your option is to stop playing. How is that mass-market?: If I'm not smart enough to solve a puzzle, what do I do I'm most games? I stop playing. In my games, and in games like this, if you're not good enough to shoot you way past a problem, find another solution. That seems like the most mainstream mass-market idea I can think of as a game designer. and I don't understand why it hasn't reached an incredibly broad audience. And with Mickey as a hero in a Disney game, I think maybe we have a chance in getting this out to a much more (diverse) group. In that sense, my ambitions I think have grown, but my belief in that idea hasn't changed at all. And I think, I do believe that I'm more -nobody asked me this either- open to different approaches to accomplish that. I used to thing that physics and emulation and really hardcore audience relation was the only way to accomplish all that stuff and I think that's untrue. There are more straight-foreword predictable game mechanical ways to get at it. So that's changed, but my believe in it is stronger than ever.
How has large-budget game design and working on AAA titles changed sense Deus Ex?
Well in my keynote, I found this when I was working on my talk, I found a picture of the Deus Ex team and it's like 20 guys. I mean, oh my god! That was ten years ago and we made a game total including QA totalling like 35 people. We have 280 some-odd people working on this game now. I mean, holy cow. That's a completely different world now. So, certainly team sizes has gone way up. Budgets have gone way up. Consoles are different now. I think kind of everything has changed. It's almost like a different business in a very real sense. But that's been true all along. The thing is that we're still so young for one thing and hardware changes every five or so years and so this industry has had to reinvent itself over and over again and I think were at one of those points where were right in the middle maybe right in the end of a reinvention period. And I'm just sitting here biting my finger nails wondering what is coming next? What is the next-next gen gonna do and how is that gonna change? Are we gonna have 3,000 people working on a game next time? I have no idea what coming and it's pretty amazing.
Has anybody who worked on the team been really excited and motivated to go back and look into the older Disney records?
Yeah! We've even had some people on the team say the game has reawakened their interest in early Disney stuff. There are already people online who are taking apart our intro sequence. There are so many references to Disney in the intro sequence it's crazy. Even the dates on the calendar have some significance. I'm not gonna tell, there's no way! I will never tell everything that's in this game. But I want players to go off and play this meta game. And if they don't, it's fine. If you don't know anything about Disney's history and don't care, you will have a fine time playing the game. But if you know something about Disney's history you will have a somewhat different maybe different rich experience. I truly hope that we can inspire people to go back and look at the old cartoons; especially the 2D side scrolling levels. Those we tried to be so faithful to the visuals of those old cartoons that I'm hoping we can drive people to go back and look at them. I have my fingers crossed.
Did the travel maps come from you wanting to put those older short cartoons in the game, but not make a full on world based on that?
That was part of it, but the real answer is that I wanted to do a platform game and no one was stupid enough to give me the money. I said this is my chance! I'm gonna sneak it in there and it totally makes sense. It totally fits in the world, it works really well. A little homage to Mario, to the classic platform games. A little pallet cleanser for players who might want a little breather, don't want to be thinking "oh my God! choice and consequence, gotta think!" No, it's just running through, have some fun. Have a minute of fun and you'll be back to the story. It just felt right all around, but absolutely. I thought it was a really great way to recreate the feel of the old cartoons.
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